Suky Sodhi: Okay, So hi, welcome to today's presentation. I am just going to make sure everybody can see me. Okay. Hear me. Okay. So if people could put into the chat to give me a thumbs up or something like that, so I know you're there. Okay, great. There you go. Thanks Jordan. Jamie, are you here? 

Suky Sodhi: Yes I am. 

Suky Sodhi: Perfect. I lost you there for a quick second.

Suky Sodhi: So thank you. Thank you ever so much for joining and sharing the stage with me today. I want to just quickly get something out of the way we're doing three things you can do to grow your team. But the reality is guys, when Jamie and I were working on this over the weekend, we came up with so many more. So we're actually going to be sharing a lot more.

Suky Sodhi: What we want to do is make sure we keep this really interactive. So please put your comments, your questions. As they pop up and join the conversation so I can see people are logging into let's get going. So let's just do some quick intros. For those of you that don't know me, I'm Suky Sodhi, founder of Professional Selection and Elite Global Recruiters group. Professional Selection where our rhetoric. To date we've recruited in 18 countries.

Suky Sodhi: Elite global recruiters is our trading and coaching arm. And to date we've recruited and coached and trained in six countries since inception two years ago. Jamie, do you want to share with everyone who are. 

Jaime Alvarez: Sure. Hi everyone. Thank you very much for joining us in this session. It's going to be pretty lighthearted and easy to follow.

Jaime Alvarez: Sure. We'd love your participation. Jamie Oliver is 17 years in the industry. I see my first mentor in the audience in Ross is the first guy that trained me as a mentor. Back when I was originally at Brunel, Inc, 2010, I want to say. So I worked for Brunel. Then I moved on to an organization that worked in mining on a global scale.

Jaime Alvarez: After spending 10 years with them, I came back to Brunel. So I managed the RPO division for the Americas at Brunel and supported the global RPO division as well. Today I'm really excited to be talking about this because it is a very objective yet subjective topic that we can all benefit from.

Suky Sodhi: Yeah, totally agree. I mean, the world of staffing has evolved so much and I almost feel as if every day something new is happening and new challenges, so ready to dive straight in. Jamie, should we go? Okay, so let's get going. So just to set the stage. And give an idea of the kind of the things we are going to be covering.

Suky Sodhi: We're going to be covering the great resignation. Why is it so hard to recruit, recruit or attrition, good old flexibility, compensation, managing our workforce and that purple squirrel syndrome. So the great resignation. Our thoughts around it now for myself. Is there a great resignation than there has been in our industry previously?

Suky Sodhi: The reality is, I don't know, I have not been able to find some hard data. My personal thoughts are it's a combination of things. And for the last two years as an industry, just like your clients, the tap has been turned off, or certainly it's not being flowing. And so people that are naturally would have moved on.

Suky Sodhi: For various reasons didn't move on. So we've got a combination of all of that happening, plus COVID plus companies, you know, leadership teams and things like that. So I'm not sure we were actually seeing a great resignation the way it's been put out. Jaime, what do you think? 

Jaime Alvarez: I think the great resignation has been a marketing tool.

Jaime Alvarez: And it is something that we use as a buzzword in the market today. I do think there are more people resigning today than they were perhaps a little bit ago. But it's not, I don't think, I don't think that's the main issue in fact. So if you don't mind just flipping over to the next slide, I'll start with the first topic that we have. Let's get into this.

Jaime Alvarez: You know, when we think about the great resignation, what's what the reality in the marketplace is today. So in 2020, we'll hit a milestone in how many jobs we had opened in North America and a very strong market going through, and then COVID happened and it really hurt us. So moving from 2019 to 2020 was really strong.

Jaime Alvarez: And then what happens, right? Through the last couple of years, we see changing and absent workforce. Yes. Safety work environments, health concerns, finally, the dynamics, the mutation, what does it mean? So people were, people are resigning today, and then they're not going back to go for the guys next door.

Jaime Alvarez: They are just deciding to stay home. They're deciding to change careers. They decided to move somewhere else. The decide that perhaps they need to take some time off work. You know, they're valuing their personal time more than they have their careers. People are choosing early retirement. You know, there are quite a few things.

Jaime Alvarez: That is happening that surrounds this topic of the great resignation that we're just, we're not just discussing. I think the biggest issue, as it says right here, is not that there are people resigning, but that the workforce is not participating in applying for new jobs or taking on new jobs.

Jaime Alvarez: Also through this time, we have seen a slew of entrepreneurs come out. Right? All of a sudden, everybody who had an idea in their mind to do something for themselves has really started to do it.. So, you know, this is translated also in, in other topics like pandemic saving. So people are choosing to take their money and move somewhere else or the leadership is something they're not happy with.

Jaime Alvarez: So they don't want to go back to work for it. It's all in all. I think there's something going on. I'm with Suky and I have tried to see some data and you know, a lot of it seems compelling, but it's not. I don't think it has landed to the point where I feel, yeah, this is true. I think we need a little bit more time.

Jaime Alvarez: It looked backwards to see where it sits. 

Suky Sodhi: Yeah. And I think bringing it to the staffing industry, some of the things me and the team are searing and we've been hearing from recruiters, managers, and leaders over the last couple of years is as an industry, people are exhausted. So if I look at a light industrial, so general staffing industry, right?

Suky Sodhi: Some of the stats that I've heard, these recruiters, staffing, specialists, whatever you may call them in your business. Whereas in the past they've had to talk to two or three candidates to cover a role. Now they're having to talk to, in some cases, 8, 9, 10 candidates, just because, depending on what region you're in, governments, certainly here in Canada, you had the government subsidies step in.

Suky Sodhi: So it really shrunk the talent pool and it's exhausted a lot of recruiters. And the other thing I want to mention here is we've lacked strong leadership. Now I'm the first to say I'm showing my age here, but I have been through many recessions as a business owner. But I'd never experienced something like this.

Suky Sodhi: So as leaders, we don't know what we don't know and we're learning, but one of the things I heard constantly and the team even now here is the lack of leadership from the front. That's been happening for the last, for the first 12, 18 months. I remember speaking to an individual who's saying to me, her boss was just ringing her up, screaming, making more calls.

Suky Sodhi: And she stayed because she needed a job. It's those individuals that are now looking at it as the markets are opening up, not looking at it and saying, what is my company doing for me now? Looking at it and saying, how did you treat me? And the other piece I want to touch on here is you and I were talking about this yesterday.

Suky Sodhi: Part of the comp plan is the cost to come to work and, you know, your commuting cost and lunch and things like that, or people have been able to save that, So we're speaking to a lot of individuals across many levels who have saved that chunk of change and have decided to take themselves out of the staffing industry altogether.

Suky Sodhi: So they're pivoting or they're just taking a break. So I think there's a number of different reasons why it's becoming so difficult to hire. 

Jaime Alvarez: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I agree with that.

Suky Sodhi: Recruiter attrition. Now this is something that I'm going to pass to you. 

Jaime Alvarez: Sure, sure thing. So, you know, as we are mentioning, people are leaving jobs and they're not coming back.

Jaime Alvarez: Right. So what, why is it happening? You know, what's going on? Our industry has been one where traditionally, you know, I don't know how many of us were in the industry at that time, but working for a 100% commission agency. And in that. Working on metrics of you know, you got to make 75 calls a day, which I found the other day in a job at.

Jaime Alvarez: And I was completely astonished by you know, we continue to put unreasonable demands and high levels of pressure on a very different workforce culture today. You know what? We responded 10, 15 years ago, it's the same way that we're the worker's going to respond to today, which is not the same as it was 30 years ago.

Jaime Alvarez: And so on, you know, every generation changes. So we're losing people to those demands because they're saying they're appreciating their lives, perhaps their life balance more than the opportunity that they have. And they come difficult to realize that there are many other employers that can give them the same or better pay.

Jaime Alvarez: You know, one of the examples is that organizations are seeing that recruit makes it becoming tighter. Recruitment costs are really high, so employees are going in-house right. They bring in for positions. Where perhaps they still have a learning curve where they're willing to pay that price.

Jaime Alvarez: They're willing to train them. They're willing to take things to the next level. And if you're not a BD hunter, you know, somebody who lives by that, if you like your personal centered recruitment, which is the vast majority of our industry, then you're going to appreciate going in house. It's a very different process.

Jaime Alvarez: You have more control over it. You get only one client and many stakeholders, but still just one client to focus on. You can take the. And then you have, of course, competition offering high salaries. So this is a pretty big deal here. We see that organizations are becoming really creative in how they pay employees, but also when they're going, when they're going in house, a lot of the recruitment folk that I see in the event we've been trying to hire actually ourselves are now more focused on the base salary than the bonus that we used to see before.

Jaime Alvarez: You know, you would think of a recruiter. I don't know, let's say six, seven years ago, somebody who was very motivated by the outcome and is hungry for that extra commission today. That's still the case, but they want a higher salary. They want to manage their lifestyle a lot stronger.

Jaime Alvarez: So. You know, this is probably one of the areas that are hurting our industry, but it's basic supply and demand. You know, if there are less people in the market today, the price is going to go up for those that are still available in the industry. And I'd love to hear from the audience, you know, both you and I were talking about it.

Jaime Alvarez: We'd love your participation questions or comments on this because I'm sure we're all living it. We're losing people. 

Suky Sodhi: Yeah. And I think absolutely. I think also what's happening is, I mean, I'll give you an example. We recently were hiring on behalf of one of our clients, a Director level role, and he got out bid by 30, $45,000 difference.

Suky Sodhi: So, how do you compete with that? Right. And I know we're going to cover the compensation as a separate one. I think as an industry, we've got to be looking at it and saying, how are we? And Sadie is saying, if you don't look hard, take care of your people, someone else will. So I totally agree with that.

Suky Sodhi: But the question becomes, how does it come to time, where we've got to look at it and say, money is not the answer. Money is not the answer. That's not the sole reason people leave. So the correction to that is, as you said, leadership needs to be trained and coached to navigate this whole change that's happening.

Suky Sodhi: And the only way that's going to happen is if you just said earlier, you saw a job description you know, make 75 calls. When I came into the industry, like 30 odd years. Those were the kind of numbers that were happening, you know, the expectation then, so it's interesting how, as an industry, our mindset hasn't evolved around the whole KPI topic, either.

Jaime Alvarez: Yeah, exactly. I agree. And you know, I see that Lara and Jimmy commented on something very similar, you know, if you don't take care of real people, someone else, well, and people need to be treated well and be paid well in order to stay with. I absolutely agree. And Jimmy, just to add to that, treating people well changes company by company and person by person, you know, what may work for you.

Jaime Alvarez: It doesn't work for everybody else. That's why to me, the success in hiring and retaining today is in making sure that you leadership recognizes this recognizes employees and their needs, whether they can be, you can be nimble and efficient at making decisions to still make business sense, because you know, sometimes you will lose an employee and that's okay.

Jaime Alvarez: The culture. Do not match. That's fine. You know, not every company is built for everyone. I'm so sorry. No company is built for everyone, so somebody's gonna leave. It's gonna it's all right. That's the nature of the workforce. That's why they don't know their own business. That's what, they're your employees.

Jaime Alvarez: But they don't need to leave with a sour taste. You know, you can manage a relationship really well and you know, I'll give you guys an example. I am right now in Columbia. Doors and stuff. I got stuck here because I got COVID before, when I was supposed to fly back to Canada where he lived and that hasn't heard me running my business and managing the teams across the Americas, communicating with the rest of my teammates around the world.

Jaime Alvarez: So my manager is very clear that you need to offer your teams to do what they need to do in order to achieve their goals. And instead of telling people what to do, you know, depending on seniority, of course you're going to be working on enabling them to achieve their goals. It's two different perspectives.

Jaime Alvarez: But something that we worked very closely on when we look at recruitment process outsourcing, which is what I focus on in companies internally with that. 

Suky Sodhi: And I think also to add to. What you've just said, nobody's new or not new, but as COVID hit this remote management, it was new to a lot of people.

Suky Sodhi: Not everybody because you've been doing it a long time, but so managers don't know what they don't know. So it's okay to say, we don't know, in which case you'd go and get the resource. Right. You get the training, the coaching and what have you. And a lot of people look at that as an expense. And yes, it's an expense.

Suky Sodhi: I'm not saying it's not an expense, but you gotta look at it and say, what is the damage being done to my business by not leading our people the right way, not understanding how to navigate this and stop the bleeding, so to speak. And that's going to be, that's going to be really important because those are the companies that are actually building their business for tomorrow.

Suky Sodhi: And they're training their people to be leaders. How to stay adaptable and flexible. So let's go on to flexibility. Cause that takes us nicely into that. Now the reality is we're all with the new hybrid model. Okay. The pool of candidates, the access to the pool of talent has grown drastically because now those boundaries of location.

Suky Sodhi: And I use a say that loosely have been removed from your sitting at the moment in Columbia, right? I'm in Toronto next week. If this session was happening next week, I would be in Dallas. So that, that fishing in that Pool, everybody used to think we had to have the local talent. Well, that's gone, but here's some and something you said earlier, your clients, I internal hiring managers, HR departments, they're all fished, also fishing in that same pond.

Suky Sodhi: So how do you create that flexible work environment? You've now I'd like you to talk a little bit more about the hybrid managing that hybrid team, because I've known you what, 10 years now, or something like that? 

Jaime Alvarez: Nearly 15 years. 

Suky Sodhi: Oh, wow. That long. And you've been managing teams around the world way before the pandemic started.

Jaime Alvarez: Yeah. You know, I wasn't a very unique opportunity where, or situation where I managed a global team in, in, in the mining recruitment space in HR consulting. And it was you know, I find the conversations that many of us are struggling with today still are the same ones that I've been struggling with throughout my career.

Jaime Alvarez: You know, people always ask, you know, what's the hardest thing in your job, very common people who don't understand our industry from outside the industry. And the responses are all have always been the same one is managing people remotely and to be making sure that you're building a culture, that's a sustainable interest variable within the organization on a remote employees.

Jaime Alvarez: So that's you know, I. When, I mean, globally, I really literally had to work across every continent sure that the cultural aspect of each individual, each country matched that of the organization. So it was a tall ask. And I think that when we start thinking about a hybrid model where you're really looking.

Jaime Alvarez: I have a client right now that keeps saying, I just want the best athlete for my team. So when we have that mentality of getting the best person for the job, location becomes secondary, you know, true that you do have more control as a leader when you have. The perception is true, that you do have more control of your team.

Jaime Alvarez: When you do manage a remote. When you manage a team that's in front of you, it is true that you can get that electric energy and vibrant approach to business when everyone's together on the phones and celebrating deals and going out for a drink and, you know, all these things are true. But that doesn't mean they have to happen every day, all the time.

Jaime Alvarez: You know, it means that you have to visit them regularly or bring them back. So I think just a quick fact here, you know, before we move on to the next year is hybrid. It's something that's really hurting hiring today and I'll put it in perspective. When we're interviewing, you know, many of our clients are saying to us, you know, please let the candidates know that once everything goes back to normal, then we expect to have you back in the office.

Jaime Alvarez: Well, we've done more than 600 hires, 700 hires, rather. Sorry. Last year we ran a survey and that really is hurting the attraction of candidates. More than 50% of candidates are dropping out of the interview process. When they're hearing that they're, you know, they have to go back to normal. What is normal and what do people want to go back to?

Jaime Alvarez: Right. Similar surveys we've run both internally. Brunel is a 12,000 strong organization. So we have it. We have pretty good data of what the world wants and that in that case, and unequivocally the organization is clear on wanting to have a flexible workspace where they're wonderful based in the office in two to three days in, 

Suky Sodhi: in, in really interested in talking to the company.

Suky Sodhi: Who are saying. And there's a, there's an amazing company that I actually really like, but we can't do business with them because they insist on every single person being based in the office. They're still hung up on that. They must be based in the office, yet they're educating their clients around this.

Suky Sodhi: Hybrid model offering this flexibility. So I know some people are going to be like, ouch moment, but one of the things I want to get out there is, look, if you're telling your clients that they should be offering candidates to hybrid models or a hundred percent remote, depends what it is. And you're not offering that yourself.

Suky Sodhi: There's something going on there. So the reality becomes who are you, quote, unquote, lying to yourself or your client, because you've got as an industry, we have to practice what we preach, right? So we can't be saying to our clients, oh no. The way forward is hybrid, but that rule doesn't apply to my team.

Suky Sodhi: My team has to be in here. So I think I want to get that point across. Look at what you're telling your clients, because your clients are seeing on social media, you saying must be in the office where you're telling them, does this person really need to be in the office. And the other piece, I quickly want to add to that.

Suky Sodhi: And it actually happened today and I made a note that I wanted to bring it up here when you're interviewing candidates. To join your team in the past. What's happened is people have taken an hour off in the morning. They go in an hour late. Well, they take the morning off, take a longer lunch break and things like that because they're going to meet you.

Suky Sodhi: Well, now it's just a team meeting or a zoom meeting, whatever the case may be. We had an individual who was meant to have an interview. Her boss called her into a meeting because she hadn't put it in a calendar that she's going to be interviewing. And she had put in there and she hadn't booked the time off.

Suky Sodhi: So as employers, as the people doing the interviews, one of the things we also got to be mindful of is that in those situations, things are gonna happen if your candidates may need to pull out of a meeting half an hour before. So I just want to make sure we understand that even though that process has changed, we gotta be making those allowances if we want to attract the right talent for our businesses.

Suky Sodhi: Yeah. Yeah. So, let me just move on. So to your point, run those internal surveys, right? Listen to what you listen to, what your people are asking. And my final. Thing I want to mention on this is we've been in this pandemic two years now, two years, something like that as a business, we should know whether we're going back to the office full-time or not now, you know, my, I we've shared why we think he shouldn't do that, but we're still seeing agencies saying to candidate, well, we're not sure what our return to work policies going to be.

Suky Sodhi: It's that? Yo-yoing right. So, which is again, costing you potential candidates right now, but not only that it's going to cost you candidates that join you right now. Thinking it's work from home. When, in reality, you're already thinking that no, they're going to come back to the office.

Suky Sodhi: So you've gotta be disclosing that information right now. The policy has got to be in place. We all know what we're doing, right. 

Jaime Alvarez: Yeah. Sorry. I was just going to add that. I agree with you 100%, put a policy in, but also in the policy put it that it may change because the world is changing.

Jaime Alvarez: And I see a couple of comments here, know, from Shirley, from David, from Sadler, from Ross, you know, they're all leading into the same point. You know, as long as you're going to give people the opportunity to work on what they need to work on, it doesn't matter if it's in the office or remote.

Jaime Alvarez: And you enable them to achieve their goals and support them through them. You're going to be fine. They're going to be excited. They're going to be, they're going to want to do it. Wow. 

Suky Sodhi: But it goes back to your point earlier, give the managers, team leaders, whoever it is, the tools and the training to be able to manage that remote workforce.

Suky Sodhi: Right. So moving on brings us to compensation. This is a. This one's just gone crazy because every day a client will say to me, what does a certain skill set cost? And I always feel as if it goes up every day. So, now, and of course I deal with our industry, so it's happening in our industry, but it's also happening in my client's industries.

Suky Sodhi: This is just a, we're expecting those salaries to continue to go up. Candidates do not have the appetite for those high risk compensation plans. You know, those either those literally eat what you kill a 100% commission we're even seeing people walking away from draws. And some lucrative drawers.

Suky Sodhi: I'm not saying they're not lucrative, but people don't want that people are looking for the security of the base salaries. And one of the things certainly here in Canada real estate is so expensive. I read the other day. Canada is now one of Toronto is one of the top five, most expensive cities to live in the world.

Suky Sodhi: Hong Kong was number one and I can't remember what all the others are: British New York, San Francisco, London, and Toronto. So when you're looking to buy a house, come, you know, the banks want that base salary. So people are looking at that for that stability on that base salary.

Suky Sodhi: Candidates that are working for companies. There's that internal equity balance that shifted as well because people are bringing in talent at 20, 30,000 more than what their counterpart in their team is doing already. Well, that's great. You're bringing in this new talent. What about the people that are there already?

Suky Sodhi: What about increasing their salaries and bringing them? Bringing those salaries up into what you said earlier, the supply and demand. It's not just impacting your clients. It's having a massive impact on our industry as a whole. So why are we waiting for this salary correction and you and I were talking about this earlier.

Suky Sodhi: People seem to think that salaries, that the whole bubble is gonna burst and the salaries are going to go back to what they were two years ago. 

Jaime Alvarez: Yeah, it's not that the cost of living is too expensive. And the thing is, you know, we always, it's a funny thing as recruiters we always tell or used to, I don't know if we still do tell the candidates, you know, if don't take counteroffer, if they really wanted you, they would have offered you before they would have treated your right and all of these things, then why are we not doing it internally with our staff?

Jaime Alvarez: Why are we not offering or stopping that right number. That they're supposed to get, or at least starting a conversation. You know, when you have a good relationship with your employees, they'll be able to tell you, you know, the market's paying more what's going on, or you should be able to say, we're going to be working on a salary.

Jaime Alvarez: Correction is going to be over the next quarter. Stay-put, don't leave because of salary. He talked to me in this., you know, recognize and anticipate and over communicate, always over communicate. 

Suky Sodhi: Yeah. And I think what's happening is as an industry. We're head hunting talent for our clients, right? It doesn't matter whether you're in accounting and finance supply chain logistics.

Suky Sodhi: No, it doesn't matter. We're proactive with you or you should have a proactive approach to get those passive candidates. Well, the reality is the same is happening to your individuals as my business. Right. So my business is to headhunt the best talent in our industry for my clients. But not only that you've got your competitors head hunting as well.

Suky Sodhi: So when there's this correction that everybody's waiting for, if you're not bringing your current team up to par somebody else's going to do and Sadie assays to add to this, there's a tremendous opportunity to hire the best team right now, as opposed to the future. There's no correction. The opportunity is now well said.

Suky Sodhi: That is so true. Because we can sit here or you can sit here rather waiting for that correction, the correction. That's not going to come the way people seem to think, and your competitors are taking your market share. Yeah. So this one is right up your alley. Jaime say, yeah, as they say the right time to plant a tree was 15 years ago and the next best time is now.

Suky Sodhi: Right. So managing the workforce, managing our workforce, having that one to you. 

Jaime Alvarez: Yeah. Thank you. Suky. This is a really interesting one, one that's really close to heart, you know? I think I have centered my career on wanting to be a better leader and inspire better leaders to be better leaders. You know, that whole thing of telling people what to do, like I was saying earlier it's just out to lunch.

Jaime Alvarez: There's no, it doesn't exist anymore. You know, people need to be free to set their own goals. As long as they might supposed to the basis, of course, and you should be able to enable them and propose them to the next level. You know, we talk about working remotely, right? So what does this mean in the workforce today?

Jaime Alvarez: So the perception is that remote learning and working equals less control. Right? So what does that translate into first age is micromanaging, right? So, you know, not so bad, get a little bit annoyed. They ask me a lot of questions, you move on, right? That's all. It's we, you know, you carry on with your work.

Jaime Alvarez: Sorry. Stage two is becoming overbearing and confrontational and what that translates into ultimately is having a demotivated workforce resigning workforce that are distracted from achieving the results. So not only are you damaging and paving the way for those employees by, over managing them, you're also exhausting yourself.

Jaime Alvarez: You're also not allowing yourself to drive the team. So the results that you're trying to achieve. And I'm gonna please, I'm almost gonna make sure that I say this with a grain of salt. Micro-managing does not mean that you don't get to ask questions. You know, micromanaging does not mean that you do not hold people accountable.

Jaime Alvarez: You know, do that. It means that you need to set the expectations together. And then the person goes and does it and reports back to you and what they've done and you have an exchange of information. I think that's an area where our employees have developed this sense of what's that word entitlement, where they think that they don't have to tell you anything.

Jaime Alvarez: Well, they do because they're your employees, but you as a leader, need to be able to make them feel like they're not being micromanaged, but rather like, just like they have business to achieve, you have them to achieve their business. So you need to know where things are at, you know, it's, everyone has a job to do and translating into the real world. What micromanaging versus overbearing confrontation is, is really critical, you know, and also, I don't know the thing that people get away from when managing your workforce is conflict. You know, conflict is really good. Conflict is that's where we grow from having friction with other people is what makes us understand how other people think having differences of opinions.

Jaime Alvarez: Those are very positive things. If they're managed on the right. If you're just arguing and leading nowhere and you're creating a sour taste in people's mouth, you're not going to get anywhere. So I think. If I were to say to anybody, what they should be working on today is training their leaders on how to manage a remote workforce, because it's not an easy journey and it's going to take a while, but that's what we're going to do for the rest of our lives, because I don't think we're going to go back to an office all the time.

Suky Sodhi: Yeah. But I think also something we see on both my coaching and training practice and the hiring side is people are so attached. To how they managed yesterday. Right? So they have this set of KPIs in you. You talked about it earlier in the 75 dials and they have this fundamental belief that it worked for me when I was running a desk.

Suky Sodhi: So why are you not working for you? And the reality is when I ran a desk, full-time it was a very different world. What could I make myself sound sold? Right. But it was different. You would pick up the phone, you would call somebody and the other person would answer it more often than not. Right.

Suky Sodhi: Cause you had their office number reception would put you through whatever the case may be. So I think one of the things I do love to see our industry embrace the individuals in the management role is to maybe spend a day in your recruiter shoes in your BD person shoes, because that's going to give you a real different appreciation for what your teams are dealing with on a day to day basis.

Suky Sodhi: That is going to help you manage your team a lot better, right? Because you suddenly realize $75 a day is a crazy metric to even be measuring these days. So I agree with you to align and train the leadership and how to manage a team remotely and employee satisfaction. But I do want to add a word of caution here to those individuals watching this now or on replay and that aren't managing people that are running the desk.

Suky Sodhi: Neither myself or Jamie, what we're not saying is you should ask and leadership should provide it's two way traffic, right? It's two way traffic. I speak to so many individuals at desk level. They're like, oh, but we're being micromanaged. And when you actually dig deeper and say, how are you being micromanaged?

Suky Sodhi: And it goes back to what you said earlier on. They just don't want the accountability. Right. So one of the things I think, I just want to make sure that people don't take away from this is that we're saying your manager shouldn't be managing you. It's not what we're saying. So moving on the good old purple squirrel.

Suky Sodhi: Good old purple squirrel right. 

Jaime Alvarez: Yeah. We heard about those a few times. Like, I think it, this is kind of a wrap up of all the topics that we have been discussing today. But the reality is that there are less available recruiters in the market today than there were a couple of years ago before in a competition spending a little money.

Jaime Alvarez: And yet we still have in every single industry, people that are coming and saying, I want these requirements and I will not hear from them. And, you know, it's an interesting perspective when we're in a world that changes, you know, we were told two weeks ago that we were no longer going to be locked down.

Jaime Alvarez: We may be locked down. You know, it just changes on a daily basis everywhere. So how can we manage our basis, you know, expecting to have the exact same configuration of an employee that we did two years ago. So, you know, one of the things you need to be. Aware of, and I'm sure you are already, that ready to roll candidates are very expensive and not everyone's going to be able to afford it if you can fantastic get it.

Jaime Alvarez: Good time. Somebody said it earlier today. Great time to get them right now because their employers may or may not be taking care of them on that, on the financial side. And hopefully can also provide a better culture and work environment for that individual, but more, I think more critically, ease to be expected today, east to up-skill.

Jaime Alvarez: Being the new norm. What that means is if you don't have the kind of a training program, get your stuff together with it already, because you will need to be able to, you know, when employees are learning and they're feeling that they can move to the next level from within the organization and I'm talking, just promotion, just learning, feeling like they're adding value and so on, they're going to be happier.

Jaime Alvarez: And when you can bring somebody from a different industry because they're curious about what we do and you can train them and keep them. That's very valuable as well. You know, there are some eight, many agencies out there. This is a fairly unfortunately common model. They go ahead and hire 10 people because they know three or four, not going to work out.

Jaime Alvarez: And they put them through the rigorous training program. And Suky said, you said the other day you know, those folds are training the teams of other companies because maybe they just didn't provide the right environment and they lost them and they went somewhere else and flourished the best. Well, we'll tell you.

Jaime Alvarez: That's one of the things that kept me the most anxious that I would train someone and they would leave. I don't know how they deal with that, but I would love to learn, you know, hiring 10, was it 3 or 4? My gosh, I want to train 1 and keep them, you know? So it's expected to be ready to train people up because you're not going to be able to keep him if you're not constantly upskilling the teams.

Suky Sodhi: No, I totally agree with you because what companies that have that heavy up model. Okay. There, I'm just making some numbers up here, right? So we're going to hire 20 and expect to keep 5, 6. Great. You're keeping what you perceive as a top performer out of that. Right. But what you've done is you've missed individuals who just need potentially a little bit more time.

Suky Sodhi: Just need a little bit more coaching, but what I want to talk about here, and those of you that know me know I'm the first one to call us out as an industry. Right. We gotta be careful about things like that because the message we're sending to graduates and people that potentially could come into this industry is guys we hire and fire, and we may decide in three months time, you haven't hit X revenue dollar, and we're going to kick you out of our program. Right? That short term, I just feel that's really shortsighted because we, as an industry, we've got to look at our reputation. We've got to look at our, we got to, I personally would love to see our industry as a career of choice.

Suky Sodhi: Not people falling into it, not people doing Hey char then seeing recruiting and just coming in thinking it's recruiting. Right. So I think it's really important that everything we do within our control obviously elevates our industry. Now, talking of hiring one of the things we're seeing a lot of, and we've got quite a few clients that we're doing this for.

Suky Sodhi: So we have the recruitment side, but we're also now. I'm seeing a shift with my clients. We're now starting to put the rookie programs together for them. So part of the attraction. So when we're sourcing their candidates for them is yes. We're sourcing the candidate. Also, because on the coaching side, we're actually delivering the training program.

Suky Sodhi: It's becoming another tool for them to attract a candidate without having to get into that pricing. So we're seeing a shift on that side as well. We're seeing a shift in companies starting to look at up-skilling their teams in more of a holistic approach. And what do I mean by that?

Suky Sodhi: It's giving individuals the opportunity to be working. So I'll just use us as the example here. So we're working with teams on an individual basis where they've got that confidentiality. So there's not that fear of, oh my God. I can't expose myself that I don't know how to do something or I need a little bit more time.

Suky Sodhi: For fear of it, going back to their bosses and things like that. So the other thing I really want to encourage everybody to do is start looking at a holistic training model for your teams, whether you're talking to me, you're doing it internally. You're going somewhere else. That's not my point here. My point is start training your individuals, your teams, because if you're not doing it, someone else is going to do it for you.

Suky Sodhi: And I want to myself say something earlier our company's co-founders still recruit and do 360 to remain in the game. This also makes it easier to manage and coach lead others when they can speak from experience and show that they're doing what they're telling others to do. Love it. Love it do as I do not, as I say so I totally agree.

Suky Sodhi: I think everybody should stay relevant and recruit even in this market. 

Jaime Alvarez: Yeah. Look, I think I agree with the statement. Although I'll be honest, I haven't done a recruitment process myself in a very long time outside for internal recruitment. When I tried to find somebody for the team. And even then I usually just go to Suky.

Jaime Alvarez: But so it's a little bit different. Well, yeah, I mean, and it also depends on the size of the organization and what he does. So it's in, in, I was going to say exactly that Jamie leading by example should be brought back. And the thing is the way that I view the business is perhaps from a different light working on, on, on a less transaction.

Jaime Alvarez: And the very, very consulting platform in recruitment. You know, it doesn't matter if you're talking VMS, RPO, MSP, your internal, your external executive search contingent Model, whatever the case may be. There are two foundational items that we can't forget about when we talk about recruitment.

Jaime Alvarez: Excuse me and that's providing a strong candidate experience and strong client experience. So he must be tired of hearing me say this. But this is basically what it comes down to in my mind, if we're able, you know, like back in the day it was all about how good are you at researching?

Jaime Alvarez: How quickly, how quick are you on the phone or getting information out of people? You know, nowadays it's less about that. Most of us have access to the same pool. Right, but how are we creating that experience for our candidates so that they can continue to show us loyalty? And how are we able to show that same experience to our clients so that they can continue to show us loyalty, you know?

Jaime Alvarez: And you can say, You know, there are many ways for me. One of the critical ones is to offer strong reporting. You know, don't wait for them to get back, you can tell you what you're supposed to do. And I don't want to get into recruitment practices. But what I will say about it is that if you're able to keep your clients and your candidates fully satisfied with your experience, always knowing what's coming next and becoming a predictable, consistent provider of our service.

Jaime Alvarez: I think you're going to do just well, you know. 

Suky Sodhi: Yeah, but also one of the things you just mentioned earlier, Ron, and I'd written that down, we'll talk about core values, right? Every company says that we have the core values. I think part of your recruitment process and when you're attracting the candidates, right?

Suky Sodhi: Because when you're talking to a candidate and you're able to clearly articulate your core values as a business, they're going to buy a breather. They're either going to buy in, or they're going to select themselves out. Because, and ultimately, if you don't have your core values written down and you know, you don't communicate them, what's going to happen.

Suky Sodhi: A culture is going to get built, but it's going to build itself. But whereas if you have your core values and you haven't part of your recruitment as part of your, another tool in your toolkit, when you're hiring people, what you're doing is you're helping refine and create the culture that you want, that people are going to want to join.

Suky Sodhi: Right. And the other note I had made after our conversation earlier on, I encourage everyone to put their job-seekers hat on and look at your company. Look at your leadership team. Look at your branding, look at your processes and say, Why would I join? And this is a difficult one because Hey, with high-performance salespeople, right.

Suky Sodhi: Even if somebody said to me, because my ego would potentially get in the way. Cause I'd be like, yeah, but why wouldn't people want to join? You've got to kind of park that to one side, but you really got to look at it and say, outside of money, Why would a manager join me? Why would a recruiter join me?

Suky Sodhi: What is it that I'm going to be able to offer them that they are going to want? So go through the process yourself. And I do want to say something here. Stop asking for candidates who are bringing a book of business. That as an, I don't know, it happens in all industries. I hear it over and over again. Can we have somebody that's going to bring a book of business or my, you know, it's really simple.

Suky Sodhi: If somebody is willing to bring their book of business, when they come and join you, they're going to leave. When they leave, they're taking your book of business, hiring somebody just because they can bring a book of business or they claim to bring a book of business is probably going to damage your business in the long run.

Suky Sodhi: So that's one of the things that I wanted to make sure I got across here today. Stop asking that question. Stop looking for that as a requirement, because easy come easy go.

Suky Sodhi: So, so Jamie, I know, oh, I'm looking at a time when we could keep going without any final thoughts. 

Jaime Alvarez: Look we talked about the Suky and we talked about more than just three things you can do today, but I think we can narrow it down to probably three major thoughts, right? I mean, I think putting a training program coaching program is critical to any business today.

Jaime Alvarez: The best companies in the world. I don't know if anybody has heard of the book to a good degree, but if you haven't, you should read it. Coaching is critical from somebody who's biased. Somebody who understands your industry knows what you're doing, but also not somebody who is in your organization so they can give you a critical thinking mess.

Jaime Alvarez: The next one is to fix your compensation. You know, make sure that you are paying right where the market is expecting to pay, especially nowadays when the candidates are far and few between. And then it's kind of similar to the first, but making sure that your leadership team is aligned on how to manage remote employees, now?

Jaime Alvarez: I can't stress it enough. It is definitely one of the hardest. In my job today, and it's the same as it was 15 years ago, the challenge is just different. And if we don't learn to manage them and keep them and make it part of our culture in a remote way, we're not going to keep them. So those are probably the three things that I would have landed on as a final thought.

Jaime Alvarez: I would love to answer any questions from anybody.

Suky Sodhi: Fire any questions you have at us and between us, we're going to try and answer them, but whilst people are doing that, I totally agree. We got to fix compensation. We have to pick, fix the compensation part. We have to fix the objectives, the metrics part of it. Right. Get realistic. And for those leaders that have not actually picked, gone into.

Suky Sodhi: Office, so to speak, ran a debt, filled an order, things like that. I highly encourage you to do that, even if you're doing it once in a once a quarter or something, stay real. I love what Marcel was saying earlier about the founders of his business. They still do it. They don't have to do it full time, but they still do it.

Suky Sodhi: So on that note, guys, has anybody got any questions, anything that they would like to add to this? Let us know, happy to, I'm happy to answer them. So let me just have a look. Have we missed any comments from earlier on? Somebody said earlier Candidate side, the highest salary expectations used to be tied to skyrocketing housing prices and costs.

Suky Sodhi: Instead of earning more commission, people are looking for base salaries. Totally agree with that. 

Jaime Alvarez: Sorry, that's not so concerned about salaries. You know, I'll pay higher salaries. You know, we, the way that I know many leaders in this call will understand that the way that we pay in our industry is a percentage of total revenue generated by that recruiter, and the reality is that while yes, salaries may be higher for different recruiters.

Jaime Alvarez: So where are the fees that we're bringing in? You know, so it is, you're going to have to invest a little bit more and perhaps they can let a little bit less home as a leader or the company, you know, the profits of the organization. But ultimately, excuse me, it'll work out to your advantage. You will survive this time.

Jaime Alvarez: You will build a good culture. You will build a good team and you don't want people thinking about money when they're at work. That's the last thing you want to have. You want them to have it in their mind? 

Suky Sodhi: Yeah, no, totally agree. Anybody wants to talk about any of this offline, feel free to drop me a note.

Suky Sodhi: I'm happy to jump on a call, answer any questions you may have Jamie, if people want to reach out to you okay with that as well. 

Jaime Alvarez: Absolutely. 

Suky Sodhi: Excellent. Okay guys. So I'm going to wrap this up because I'm conscious of time. Thanks. And it's five coming up to five 30 now. Thanks. Ever so much for joining and staying till after the five o'clock finish. Really appreciate it. And guys let's keep elevating our industry and doing what we're more of what we do. Thanks for listening. And of course, thank you to the World Staffing Summit for putting this together and giving us the opportunity to have this week where we are able to collaborate.

Jaime Alvarez: Thank you everyone.

Suky Sodhi: Thank you Jamie, for joining. Take care. Thanks, bye.